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Thread: Local Sanctuaries

  1. #1
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    Local Sanctuaries

    A club member drew my attention to some drama going on over on Craiglist's pet section. The drama includes to local sanctuaries basically, uh, fighting with each other over what each other do... and, frankly, it kinda makes us exotic pet keepers look a bit crazy (like we're not, right? ) but it's not something that should be broadcast all over CL.

    So, knowing one of the parties involved is already a club member I invited the other party to join so we could discuss the issue here. If it's affecting the herp community I think the herp community should be able to chime in.

    I will be heavily monitoring the posts. Keep it civil. No cussing, name calling, etc... k?

    And while I prolly don't know everything going on I like to stick my nose into places it prolly shouldn't go so..............

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    Actually to clear it up, right now there is no fued between the 2 of us, and everything is extremely civil. I've made myself as public and open to questions/comments as possible, and have also made myself personally available to anyone with questions. We had it dropped of this morning as indeed, it puts a horrible light on the hobby in general, that and the fact I honestly don't care enough to keep arguing. I'd much rather invest my time into my herp care, finding homes, designing my website, or working on my small business prospects.

    I'll go ahead and post my CL response since it'll probably get flagged soon:
    I come on craigslist to find this:
    "Beware this person! He is a reptile flipper! He says it is a reptile rescue but yet there is sales in the title and he refuses to take in sick or anything unhealthy that he cannot sell. He does not have them vetted, and he does not guarentee a good home for your animal. He does not guarentee the home or placement of your animal. Nor does he guarentee to return the animal if he cannot keep it or help it. He has no adoption contracts and does not have the best interest of your animal at heart. BEWARE THIS PERSON! If you want proof please feel free to contact me. "

    I take this as an extremely personal attack and a breach of trust. I was honestly going to leave it alone, however I'm not going to let someone post blatant lies about me and bash me publically like this. It's uncalled for and childish. First of all, I'm not a reptile flipper, unless you want to call me that, in which case I'm really not offended. All of the animals that have come through my facilities have been given to me with 0 information on the animal, no idea of their health, just handed to me. Most of these animals have nothing wrong with them and are great pets. However, who's to say if not for me, the next random person to pick them up wouldn't have known absolutely anything about them? I take in a lot of animals, some I keep personally, I got my 6.5 foot snow bullsnake off here and I love him to death and plan to use him in educational shows and whatnot. Some animals I get are taken care of, fed a good meal, make sure they pass food completely, and are off to new homes once I am assured they are handleable pets, usually with full setups, and food, along with information and my contact information should any problems arise. I stand behind the animals I rehome 100%. Every home that I've put a reptile in knows what they are doing, has been educated, and proven to be ready for a reptile companion, is this not better for our hobby than just posting it and giving it to some random with no proper information? I created forums on a few herp sites and asked before I started what they thought of it ethically. All of them have said I am bettering the hobby by providing quality captive bred animals and information that I stand behind 110%, you can ask anyone who's recieved an animal from me and I haven't had a negative complaint yet.

    As for refusal to take in sick, that is not 100% true. Since I've started I've taken in a few animals that where sub par health. Dehydrated pythons with awful awful sheds that I've had to spend hours cleaning up and making sure are alright. I've taken in dehdyrated and starved bearded dragons which I've rehabed into awesome animals who are ready for a great new home. Do I take every single animal to a vet that I get? No, I've spent 15+ years in this hobby and by now I'm fairly experienced with most reptile problems and treating them, and when an animal is healthy, signs of sickness. I've had one sick animal that I could not take due to my circumstances. I had to decline a large boa with significant injuries and sickness, because I simply couldn't afford it. It's not that I don't care, it's the fact that I'm unemployed, full time college student who's trying to make ends meet as it is, while trying to help people and do what I love.

    I do guaruntee a good home for the animal, all of my herps have gone into great homes, none have just been given to a customer with know knowledge. As I've said from the very start, I don't offer to take in every sick and injured animal and rehab it and keep it in my personal collection, I don't have the space or money for such an endevour as our reptile hobby is currently flooded with neglected and poorly kept individuals. As for returning the animals, I've had one individual I've recieved a snake from specify if I can't take care of it, to give it back, and I'm honoring that, I recieved an awesome well kept perfect snake from him, worth much much more than I paid for it, and I still have it, and he's free to contact me anytime to verify I have it. As for the rest of them, no one seems to care what happens to their herps, they are just given to me and forgot about, because that's sadly the society we live in. No, I don't do "adoption" contracts. I'm not a shelter, I'm a local herp keeper who's hoping to educate the public, take in unwanted animals to prevent them from being dumped, and provide quality pet reptiles and supplys to the community, along with education on proper herp care.

    As for "best interest of the animal".. If I didn't care, I'd be selling sick animals, because frankly, it's easier to get a dumped sick animal and sell it real fast for a quick buck, but I don't. Any animal I do not feel I can properly care for I DO NOT TAKE IN. Period. That's doing the responsible thing, any animal I can't take I'm more than willing to point in the right direction for proper care or proper facilities (corhs.org for example). Feel free to post whatever "proof" you want on here, I have nothing to hide. I'm open for questions at any time and my cellphone is listed on my facebook page and on my ads I have nothing to hide from anyone.

    Whoever it is slandering me, it's kinda sad, our hobby already has a bad enough name, and here you are on CL slandering someone who has done absolutely nothing wrong. If YOU cared about the animals, you would drop this nonsense and let it go, and spend your time working towards bettering the reptiles/community as a whole rather than bashing someone who's trying to help.
    -Mike
    The other sanctuary says this isn't from her end, but from someone else who knows her or some other nonsense. I honestly have no clue who it is, nor do I honestly care, another internet tough guy who feels like acting like a cyber policeman when they've never met me nor talked to me in person. It's laughable to be honest.

    -Mike, Mike's reptile sanctuary and sales.

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    i don't think this is needed really any longer we've been emailing back and forth all day and are actually getting along we havent posted anything on CL about each other since we've began emailing and agreed no to because it hurts the cause more than helps it

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike
    Actually to clear it up, right now there is no fued between the 2 of us, and everything is extremely civil. I've made myself as public and open to questions/comments as possible, and have also made myself personally available to anyone with questions. We had it dropped of this morning as indeed, it puts a horrible light on the hobby in general, that and the fact I honestly don't care enough to keep arguing. I'd much rather invest my time into my herp care, finding homes, designing my website, or working on my small business prospects.

    I'll go ahead and post my CL response since it'll probably get flagged soon:
    I come on craigslist to find this:
    "Beware this person! He is a reptile flipper! He says it is a reptile rescue but yet there is sales in the title and he refuses to take in sick or anything unhealthy that he cannot sell. He does not have them vetted, and he does not guarentee a good home for your animal. He does not guarentee the home or placement of your animal. Nor does he guarentee to return the animal if he cannot keep it or help it. He has no adoption contracts and does not have the best interest of your animal at heart. BEWARE THIS PERSON! If you want proof please feel free to contact me. "

    I take this as an extremely personal attack and a breach of trust. I was honestly going to leave it alone, however I'm not going to let someone post blatant lies about me and bash me publically like this. It's uncalled for and childish. First of all, I'm not a reptile flipper, unless you want to call me that, in which case I'm really not offended. All of the animals that have come through my facilities have been given to me with 0 information on the animal, no idea of their health, just handed to me. Most of these animals have nothing wrong with them and are great pets. However, who's to say if not for me, the next random person to pick them up wouldn't have known absolutely anything about them? I take in a lot of animals, some I keep personally, I got my 6.5 foot snow bullsnake off here and I love him to death and plan to use him in educational shows and whatnot. Some animals I get are taken care of, fed a good meal, make sure they pass food completely, and are off to new homes once I am assured they are handleable pets, usually with full setups, and food, along with information and my contact information should any problems arise. I stand behind the animals I rehome 100%. Every home that I've put a reptile in knows what they are doing, has been educated, and proven to be ready for a reptile companion, is this not better for our hobby than just posting it and giving it to some random with no proper information? I created forums on a few herp sites and asked before I started what they thought of it ethically. All of them have said I am bettering the hobby by providing quality captive bred animals and information that I stand behind 110%, you can ask anyone who's recieved an animal from me and I haven't had a negative complaint yet.

    As for refusal to take in sick, that is not 100% true. Since I've started I've taken in a few animals that where sub par health. Dehydrated pythons with awful awful sheds that I've had to spend hours cleaning up and making sure are alright. I've taken in dehdyrated and starved bearded dragons which I've rehabed into awesome animals who are ready for a great new home. Do I take every single animal to a vet that I get? No, I've spent 15+ years in this hobby and by now I'm fairly experienced with most reptile problems and treating them, and when an animal is healthy, signs of sickness. I've had one sick animal that I could not take due to my circumstances. I had to decline a large boa with significant injuries and sickness, because I simply couldn't afford it. It's not that I don't care, it's the fact that I'm unemployed, full time college student who's trying to make ends meet as it is, while trying to help people and do what I love.

    I do guaruntee a good home for the animal, all of my herps have gone into great homes, none have just been given to a customer with know knowledge. As I've said from the very start, I don't offer to take in every sick and injured animal and rehab it and keep it in my personal collection, I don't have the space or money for such an endevour as our reptile hobby is currently flooded with neglected and poorly kept individuals. As for returning the animals, I've had one individual I've recieved a snake from specify if I can't take care of it, to give it back, and I'm honoring that, I recieved an awesome well kept perfect snake from him, worth much much more than I paid for it, and I still have it, and he's free to contact me anytime to verify I have it. As for the rest of them, no one seems to care what happens to their herps, they are just given to me and forgot about, because that's sadly the society we live in. No, I don't do "adoption" contracts. I'm not a shelter, I'm a local herp keeper who's hoping to educate the public, take in unwanted animals to prevent them from being dumped, and provide quality pet reptiles and supplys to the community, along with education on proper herp care.

    As for "best interest of the animal".. If I didn't care, I'd be selling sick animals, because frankly, it's easier to get a dumped sick animal and sell it real fast for a quick buck, but I don't. Any animal I do not feel I can properly care for I DO NOT TAKE IN. Period. That's doing the responsible thing, any animal I can't take I'm more than willing to point in the right direction for proper care or proper facilities (corhs.org for example). Feel free to post whatever "proof" you want on here, I have nothing to hide. I'm open for questions at any time and my cellphone is listed on my facebook page and on my ads I have nothing to hide from anyone.

    Whoever it is slandering me, it's kinda sad, our hobby already has a bad enough name, and here you are on CL slandering someone who has done absolutely nothing wrong. If YOU cared about the animals, you would drop this nonsense and let it go, and spend your time working towards bettering the reptiles/community as a whole rather than bashing someone who's trying to help.
    -Mike
    The other sanctuary says this isn't from her end, but from someone else who knows her or some other nonsense. I honestly have no clue who it is, nor do I honestly care, another internet tough guy who feels like acting like a cyber policeman when they've never met me nor talked to me in person. It's laughable to be honest.

    -Mike, Mike's reptile sanctuary and sales.
    actually it's not anyone i know i never said it was i simply said it wasn't me and could be a lot of people that i knew of a lot of people who were upset about you i'd never endorse anyone i know flaming you after we've agreed civility because thats just wrong

  5. #5
    Website Admin Bell's Avatar
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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    Leah, your last post on FB two hours ago was: "I love that i got an email today from the guy who trashed me admitting to being an animal flipper yet people are still liking his sanctuary even though it's also a sales thing the guy doesn't even vet his animals or take in sick animals just what people don't want" Maybe that spurred it and if you post something saying that everything is okay now who ever it was that went back to CL would stop..?

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    I really would however, like to know the communities thoughts on getting reptiles and reselling them. I sell plenty of herps over the course of a year, and it's part of how I pay the bills. I just fail to see how someone can be so angry at the fact I buy low and sell high (good economic strategy is it not?), considering all my animals are healthy and tame, and come with information. I stand behind every single sale and offer follow ups/help with any animal that comes from me.

    I just really don't see how it's that much harm, are people really this egotistical that they feel the need to whine because I make money from the hobby I love?

    As for whoever it is, I'm not sure, they posted publically with the email calhan1233@aol.com. I simply haven't bothered to trace the email back and figure who it is, because clearly they have less of a life than me. Whoever it is, I'm pretty sure they'd be better off spending their time on their animals than trying to bash me on CL.

  7. #7
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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    If you are straight with people that you're selling for profit it's not a problem. Pretty much all of us have done that at one point or another. I mean, unless you're 100% a breeder what you HAVE to do to make money to stay afloat is buy wholesale, sell retail.

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Bell
    Leah, your last post on FB two hours ago was: "I love that i got an email today from the guy who trashed me admitting to being an animal flipper yet people are still liking his sanctuary even though it's also a sales thing the guy doesn't even vet his animals or take in sick animals just what people don't want" Maybe that spurred it and if you post something saying that everything is okay now who ever it was that went back to CL would stop..?
    that was before me and him worked things out and i was still upset our first emails this morning we're still tense now they're not i've asked all the people i know who were upset about it if they're doing it but none of them have admitted to it so as far as i know it's not one of my friends doing it could be someone on CL thats just mad at both of us since i've gotten flagged and harassed repeatedly as well since this happened it's just now this afternoon that my ad is being allowed to stay up

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike
    I really would however, like to know the communities thoughts on getting reptiles and reselling them. I sell plenty of herps over the course of a year, and it's part of how I pay the bills. I just fail to see how someone can be so angry at the fact I buy low and sell high (good economic strategy is it not?), considering all my animals are healthy and tame, and come with information. I stand behind every single sale and offer follow ups/help with any animal that comes from me.

    I just really don't see how it's that much harm, are people really this egotistical that they feel the need to whine because I make money from the hobby I love?

    As for whoever it is, I'm not sure, they posted publically with the email calhan1233@aol.com. I simply haven't bothered to trace the email back and figure who it is, because clearly they have less of a life than me. Whoever it is, I'm pretty sure they'd be better off spending their time on their animals than trying to bash me on CL.
    personally thats your thing i'm more about adoptions i get my money elsewhere but i also don't work so i understand the feeling behind it as we've pretty well agreed we each have our own methods of doing things and we'll do things our own ways just like if i get anything in a can't keep or vice versa as we've discussed we'll help each other out i just try to find loving families for the animals which i'm sure you do as well and we just have different ways of going about it

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Bell
    Leah, your last post on FB two hours ago was: "I love that i got an email today from the guy who trashed me admitting to being an animal flipper yet people are still liking his sanctuary even though it's also a sales thing the guy doesn't even vet his animals or take in sick animals just what people don't want" Maybe that spurred it and if you post something saying that everything is okay now who ever it was that went back to CL would stop..?
    I neve said I was a flipper in the sense of the word you are using it in. I said if you want to call me it, go ahead, it doesn't bother me one bit, flippers just happens to be a bad name. I'm pretty sure one of the best economic strategies, employed by nearly all good businessmen, is buy low sell high, it's part of running a business. I also do sales, I'm looking at opening a retail location and running a pet shop, providing quality animals.

    I never said I don't vet my animals, I said I don't take in extremely sick animals. What good is a sick animal in the hands of someone who's between jobs and trying to get off the ground? Is it not better for me to let someone who can properly take care of and provide for the animal have it rather than me taking it and not being able to provide? I know my limits, both in terms of space and financially. As much as I would love to save every animal, I can't. For the record, I've turned down ONE sick animal, because it was going to run me several hundred dollars in vet bills, clearly it's better for that single animal to go somewhere it belongs rather than in my house, only for me not to be able to afford my rent and get evicted then have other animals needing homes as well?

    I've taken in several sick animals, all are in great health now. Hell the pair of dragons I'm rehoming today where so close to death the female would only drag her back legs, she's doing great now and has come a long way.

    Either way, I've received a tremendous amount of support and backing from CL, the community, and my customers in terms of my herps.

    -Mike

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike
    Quote Originally Posted by Bell
    Leah, your last post on FB two hours ago was: "I love that i got an email today from the guy who trashed me admitting to being an animal flipper yet people are still liking his sanctuary even though it's also a sales thing the guy doesn't even vet his animals or take in sick animals just what people don't want" Maybe that spurred it and if you post something saying that everything is okay now who ever it was that went back to CL would stop..?
    I neve said I was a flipper in the sense of the word you are using it in. I said if you want to call me it, go ahead, it doesn't bother me one bit, flippers just happens to be a bad name. I'm pretty sure one of the best economic strategies, employed by nearly all good businessmen, is buy low sell high, it's part of running a business. I also do sales, I'm looking at opening a retail location and running a pet shop, providing quality animals.

    I never said I don't vet my animals, I said I don't take in extremely sick animals. What good is a sick animal in the hands of someone who's between jobs and trying to get off the ground? Is it not better for me to let someone who can properly take care of and provide for the animal have it rather than me taking it and not being able to provide? I know my limits, both in terms of space and financially. As much as I would love to save every animal, I can't. For the record, I've turned down ONE sick animal, because it was going to run me several hundred dollars in vet bills, clearly it's better for that single animal to go somewhere it belongs rather than in my house, only for me not to be able to afford my rent and get evicted then have other animals needing homes as well?

    I've taken in several sick animals, all are in great health now. Hell the pair of dragons I'm rehoming today where so close to death the female would only drag her back legs, she's doing great now and has come a long way.

    Either way, I've received a tremendous amount of support and backing from CL, the community, and my customers in terms of my herps.

    -Mike
    as i said to erica i was angry when i wrote that an venting once again i apologize i was upset when you attacked me my feelings were hurt and i was upset and venting on my personal facebook but i'm over it and obviously we're getting along

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    I really don't mind, I don't hold it against you or the fact you vented on your facebook, that isn't my business nor do I care. At the end of the day, my facilities are clean, my animals are healthy, I'm educating and providing good homes for herps, and that's enough for me to gain support regardless of how much people who dislike me may want to flame me and harass me, that's all the peace of mind I need to sleep at night.

    As stated on my facebook info:
    Hi, I'm Michael, I've been keeping reptiles ever since I was old enough to catch them. I created this page for several purposes; education, rescue, rehabilitation, and sales. I'm not like a normal sanctuary, or like some other pretend sanctuarys out there. I do a lot of everything. I do public education talks, which can be arranged where I talk about various reptiles, husbandry, reptiles native to here in Colorado, and other awareness of the hobby. I also do rescues on the side, I take in animals who are in distress and nuture them back to health so they can go to proper homes. I also am involved in the private sale of animals and accessories.

    I'm not going to claim I'm going to take your animal and keep it forever and ever and love it, that's not what I do or what any shelter does. I keep several animals in my private collection, those that are large or are my education pieces, the rest I rehome for a small fee. My goal is to provide quality clean and tame reptiles to all of my customers unless otherwise agreed upon. I make sure all my customers are happy and satisfied with their animals and offer future support from myself, and my extensive network of fellow reptile hobbyists. I aim to better the community, and the hobby as a whole.

    If you have an unwanted reptile, feel free to contact me, I can either take it off your hands and rehome it and adopt it out, or I can point you in the proper direction to take certain animals (specifically large iguanas and red eared slider turtles). I have experience with almost all reptiles available in the pet trade today, and some that aren't, and what I don't know about, I research. You can rest assured any animal that comes into my hand will be well taken care of until rehomed, and all animals purchased from me are in great condition and awesome animals. If you have any questions feel free to shoot me an email and ask.
    -Mike

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike
    I really don't mind, I don't hold it against you or the fact you vented on your facebook, that isn't my business nor do I care. At the end of the day, my facilities are clean, my animals are healthy, I'm educating and providing good homes for herps, and that's enough for me to gain support regardless of how much people who dislike me may want to flame me and harass me, that's all the peace of mind I need to sleep at night.

    As stated on my facebook info:
    Hi, I'm Michael, I've been keeping reptiles ever since I was old enough to catch them. I created this page for several purposes; education, rescue, rehabilitation, and sales. I'm not like a normal sanctuary, or like some other pretend sanctuarys out there. I do a lot of everything. I do public education talks, which can be arranged where I talk about various reptiles, husbandry, reptiles native to here in Colorado, and other awareness of the hobby. I also do rescues on the side, I take in animals who are in distress and nuture them back to health so they can go to proper homes. I also am involved in the private sale of animals and accessories.

    I'm not going to claim I'm going to take your animal and keep it forever and ever and love it, that's not what I do or what any shelter does. I keep several animals in my private collection, those that are large or are my education pieces, the rest I rehome for a small fee. My goal is to provide quality clean and tame reptiles to all of my customers unless otherwise agreed upon. I make sure all my customers are happy and satisfied with their animals and offer future support from myself, and my extensive network of fellow reptile hobbyists. I aim to better the community, and the hobby as a whole.

    If you have an unwanted reptile, feel free to contact me, I can either take it off your hands and rehome it and adopt it out, or I can point you in the proper direction to take certain animals (specifically large iguanas and red eared slider turtles). I have experience with almost all reptiles available in the pet trade today, and some that aren't, and what I don't know about, I research. You can rest assured any animal that comes into my hand will be well taken care of until rehomed, and all animals purchased from me are in great condition and awesome animals. If you have any questions feel free to shoot me an email and ask.
    -Mike
    well then obviously it's a non issue anymore and we've agreed to be civil earlier today and as i've said i'm not sure who's doing the flaming of you on there because no one i know is doing it but i figure things will die down for the both of us here soon

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    I'm not sure about dieing down. As long as the internet is around, people will bash me on it, simply because they don't know me at all, it's typical, and doesn't bother me.

    -Mike

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    Re: Local Sanctuaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike
    I'm not sure about dieing down. As long as the internet is around, people will bash me on it, simply because they don't know me at all, it's typical, and doesn't bother me.

    -Mike
    that is true i guess thick skin is the way to go on it but either way we no longer have issues with one another so it's no matter anymore

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